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the_fantastic_ms_fox"You can get Xtra West there. It comes in every couple of weeks." I say to her.
She's a fag hag and says she's been missing her circles in Toronto.
"I might be in the next one: i was interviewed."
"About what?"
I relay the story with Lu's. How it opened, and wouldn't admit transsexuals or intersexuals, and how the Femininjas protested, did outreach. How they held out, but changed. How they lost a lot of volunteer support, and aren't doing so well now.
"Great. Another service for women closes." She says.
And so a very difficult conversat
"Well, what else are we supposed to do? Let it slide? And the people who earlier objected are trying to get them volunteers; we're publicizing the change. Heck we're doing more to save their ass than they are. It's like they've given up."
A long conversation ensues. In this, she opines that, despite not knowing what "intersexed" means at first, she believes that intersexed women should not be able to access women's services. Probably not transsexuals. But butches are okay. And I'm okay. Because I pass. To her.
A fellow gets dragged into this. I think they might be dating. He backs her up. One thing I do not need in my life are male allies who are only allies to women with privilege. It is especially common with the trans, and with the sex work.
I suggest that she goes and talk to the local women's center which, like almost all women's centres in the province, is trans inclusive. She repeatedly refuses to have the same argument there. But she will talk to her mother, who, she mentions several times, is a gender studies professor, and this makes her opinion more valid. Even if she in no way refers to anythin her mother has taught her, and even if her mother would disagree.
I explain that this hurts, that I've seen a lot of bad things happen to people; that I'm tried of seeing it.
I like to think we're friends. We get along well, and the conversations are often very good. but there is friction. It peeks out when we talk World Trade Centre vs. 747's conspiracy theories, or psychospiritual applications of quantum theory or astrophysics by people who, over time, became clear that they've never cracked a highschool physics textbook.
We've talked. About whether most bisexuals are actually bi: me in the pro; her in the con. About her opinions on Furries. Asian women driving cars. Her use of the N word. On the first, she's still with her reading of Dan Savage: it's a stage - although she kinda leans in that direction herself. On the second, she's said that she just thinks it's unnatural and will lead to bestiality - notwithstanding the use of the same rhetoric to demonize gays, her social net. She's shut up on the third, though that may just be chance as it came up rarely in the first place. On the fourth, she's stopped doing it when I'm around.
But this is the first time she's extended her attitude to a demographic that includes me.
It seems that you can give her all the examples you want. Use as many "I statements" as you want. Cite as many parallels as you want. Listen as much as you want. Her opinion won't change: that's how she feels and she's sticking to it.
It scares me that similar patterns of thought are at the root of most political allegiances.
And I know how to change this belief: you appeal to the irrational side of someone, and you work over years, or decades to change it.
I wish I could look forward to taking some space from her, but we're in a class of seven people, fifty hours a week, until April, possibly longer. And she is enmeshed in the social grouping of three (maybe four if one doesn't drop out) that is the closest thing I have to peers in that class, and the closest thing I have to everyday friends (as opposed to once-a-week friends) in Nelson, so any distance from her would be distance from two or three others who are closer to her than to me.
Similar patters in the past: BCIT. A last date
I am very tired of trying to convince people of... well of anything. It's like swimming against a river. Argument generally makes things worse, this I have learned. But sometimes it seems that there is nothing you can do.
The culture shock of Nelson and The Arts has brought this out in me. And I fear I have become more didactic in response.
The steadfast reliance on first impulse, the refusal of some people to learn, educate themselves, or to want to change, and the need to use slooooooow means of circumventing reasion to make that change happen anyway because sometimes lives fucking depend on it leads me in misanthropic directions that I do not like. I feel spilt between seperation politics, machiavellianism and nihilism - none of which particularly like, but if i have to pick, I guess I'll go with the first because it's both effective and honest.
I initiate a hug before I leave. I would like to think that we agree to disagree, but for me, this puts limits on our friendship. And I do not think her opinion will change in the immediate future.
I cannot leave this conversation be. Something in it hurts more than I expected. I am reminded of how far I am from home. I wonder what this bodes for the remaining school year. I feel very tired. Angry. Listless. I wonder how long change will take. I think about the practicality of engineering a different kind of human being. Or an artificial intelligence that sits on your shoulder and all it does is call you on your bullshit - and maybe calculate tips and remember telephone numbers.
She's a fag hag and says she's been missing her circles in Toronto.
"I might be in the next one: i was interviewed."
"About what?"
I relay the story with Lu's. How it opened, and wouldn't admit transsexuals or intersexuals, and how the Femininjas protested, did outreach. How they held out, but changed. How they lost a lot of volunteer support, and aren't doing so well now.
"Great. Another service for women closes." She says.
And so a very difficult conversat
"Well, what else are we supposed to do? Let it slide? And the people who earlier objected are trying to get them volunteers; we're publicizing the change. Heck we're doing more to save their ass than they are. It's like they've given up."
A long conversation ensues. In this, she opines that, despite not knowing what "intersexed" means at first, she believes that intersexed women should not be able to access women's services. Probably not transsexuals. But butches are okay. And I'm okay. Because I pass. To her.
A fellow gets dragged into this. I think they might be dating. He backs her up. One thing I do not need in my life are male allies who are only allies to women with privilege. It is especially common with the trans, and with the sex work.
I suggest that she goes and talk to the local women's center which, like almost all women's centres in the province, is trans inclusive. She repeatedly refuses to have the same argument there. But she will talk to her mother, who, she mentions several times, is a gender studies professor, and this makes her opinion more valid. Even if she in no way refers to anythin her mother has taught her, and even if her mother would disagree.
I explain that this hurts, that I've seen a lot of bad things happen to people; that I'm tried of seeing it.
I like to think we're friends. We get along well, and the conversations are often very good. but there is friction. It peeks out when we talk World Trade Centre vs. 747's conspiracy theories, or psychospiritual applications of quantum theory or astrophysics by people who, over time, became clear that they've never cracked a highschool physics textbook.
We've talked. About whether most bisexuals are actually bi: me in the pro; her in the con. About her opinions on Furries. Asian women driving cars. Her use of the N word. On the first, she's still with her reading of Dan Savage: it's a stage - although she kinda leans in that direction herself. On the second, she's said that she just thinks it's unnatural and will lead to bestiality - notwithstanding the use of the same rhetoric to demonize gays, her social net. She's shut up on the third, though that may just be chance as it came up rarely in the first place. On the fourth, she's stopped doing it when I'm around.
But this is the first time she's extended her attitude to a demographic that includes me.
It seems that you can give her all the examples you want. Use as many "I statements" as you want. Cite as many parallels as you want. Listen as much as you want. Her opinion won't change: that's how she feels and she's sticking to it.
It scares me that similar patterns of thought are at the root of most political allegiances.
And I know how to change this belief: you appeal to the irrational side of someone, and you work over years, or decades to change it.
I wish I could look forward to taking some space from her, but we're in a class of seven people, fifty hours a week, until April, possibly longer. And she is enmeshed in the social grouping of three (maybe four if one doesn't drop out) that is the closest thing I have to peers in that class, and the closest thing I have to everyday friends (as opposed to once-a-week friends) in Nelson, so any distance from her would be distance from two or three others who are closer to her than to me.
Similar patters in the past: BCIT. A last date
I am very tired of trying to convince people of... well of anything. It's like swimming against a river. Argument generally makes things worse, this I have learned. But sometimes it seems that there is nothing you can do.
The culture shock of Nelson and The Arts has brought this out in me. And I fear I have become more didactic in response.
The steadfast reliance on first impulse, the refusal of some people to learn, educate themselves, or to want to change, and the need to use slooooooow means of circumventing reasion to make that change happen anyway because sometimes lives fucking depend on it leads me in misanthropic directions that I do not like. I feel spilt between seperation politics, machiavellianism and nihilism - none of which particularly like, but if i have to pick, I guess I'll go with the first because it's both effective and honest.
I initiate a hug before I leave. I would like to think that we agree to disagree, but for me, this puts limits on our friendship. And I do not think her opinion will change in the immediate future.
I cannot leave this conversation be. Something in it hurts more than I expected. I am reminded of how far I am from home. I wonder what this bodes for the remaining school year. I feel very tired. Angry. Listless. I wonder how long change will take. I think about the practicality of engineering a different kind of human being. Or an artificial intelligence that sits on your shoulder and all it does is call you on your bullshit - and maybe calculate tips and remember telephone numbers.
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no subject
Date: 2010-02-22 01:51 pm (UTC)Ugh. Sounds long and painful.
no subject
Date: 2010-02-22 05:04 pm (UTC)It fucking sucks that I have to hold this up as something to hope for.
You've been super brave and self-advocating and open during the last couple of years. I don't know if I've ever said it, but I'm really proud of you for that.
no subject
Date: 2010-02-24 05:26 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-02-24 05:55 am (UTC)yup. this.
no subject
Date: 2010-02-22 11:31 pm (UTC)She does not sound like a winner, no.
no subject
Date: 2010-02-23 05:48 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-02-23 07:14 am (UTC)And on a personal note, I'd like to just say that bisexuality does not end when you get into a serious relationship - I think this is why people call it a 'phase'. But being in a relationship with a man does not make me straight, and being in a relationship with a woman does not make me a lesbian. It took some time for me to figure this out myself, so I imagine it will be awhile before the naysayers understand it, as well.
no subject
Date: 2010-02-23 08:25 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-02-24 03:26 am (UTC)You are loved & accepted by many!
They just don't happen to be in Nelson, which sucks, so squish!